domingo, 9 de maio de 2010

MR. DE SELINCOURT - "DE LA CHASSE DES LEVRIERS"



in De La Chasse (parte III), "Histoire de la vie privée des français depuis l’origine de la nation jusqu’à nos jours", Paris, 1815 (nova edição), tomo I, p. 407 [clicar na foto]

De notar no recurso feito à citação bibliográfica de Mr. De Selincourt, “Le Parfait Chasseur, pour l’instruction des personnes de qualité ou autres qui aiment la chasse ..., A Paris, Chez Gabriel Quinet ..., 1683", um aviso insuficiente em nota de roda-pé, sem qualquer referência à página consultada. O que é lamentável e não se aconselha.

Ora a dita referência a Selincourt vem no Capítulo XXI – "De la Chasse des Levriers" -, p.p. 134-138. E, aqui, a transcrição do texto de Selincourt não é totalmente correcta e está, mesmo, truncada. Assim, quando o autor de "Histoire de la vie privée ..." nos encaminha para o segundo grupo de galgos [ver acima], citando Selincourt, refere o cão francês, inglês e polaco (!?), não citando (e está lá, para quem quiser ler) o cão português e o turco [cf. Selincourt, p. 135].

Na p.136, ainda sobre este assunto, e ainda na segunda espécie de galgos, há uma outra referência de Selincourt ao cão português ["Les Portugais en ont aussi de fort bons, mais ils sont de deux sortes: les uns pour les plaines, les autres pour les montagnes. Ceux des plaines sont estimes …"].

Começa a ser preocupante, de facto, que as constantes citações a alguns autores – Selincourt, e em particular a sua douta monografia – sejam feitas de forma imperfeita, incompleta ou mesmo de registo grosseiro. Sendo certo que o repertório bibliográfico sobre o cão de caça é vultuoso, antigo no tempo e, por isso, difícil de encontrar com facilidade, tal não pode significar que as fontes não devam ser rigorosas. Para que os erros e as omissões não criem "cismas na alma". Et pour cause ...

29 comentários:

américo disse...

A citação atribuída a Sélincourt por Castets et Sénac Lagrange fazem no seu livro, "Le braque français...", 1924, p.p. 7 e 8 não consta no "Le parfait chasseur..."

p. 7
«... Sélincourt écrivait que "ces braques d' Espagne était de haut taille et de formes robustes, avec la tête grosse, les oreilles longues, le museau carré, le nez gros, les lèvres pendants, le cou épais, les pattes longues et fortes; leur pelage était
p. 8
ras, ordinairement blanc avec taches brunes.»

Leopoldo Machado Carmona, "Estudo sobre o Perdigueiro Português", 1938 retira esta mesma citação do livro referido de Castets e Sénac-Lagrange, referindo-a erradamente às pp. 8 e 9; no texto de Carmona a citação em causa é a seguinte.
«era: "de grande estatura e corpulência, este braco de Espanha, de formas robustas, com pesada cabeça, longas orelhas, focinho quadrado, nariz grosso, lábios pendentes, caídos, pescoço espesso, patas longas e fortes; a sua pelagem era curta, ordinariamente branca com grandes malhas castanhas." Evidentemente que estes cães pesado, descritos por Sélincourt, não são os mesmos descritos pelo seu contemporâneo Espinar (1664), tudo leva a crer, efectivamente, que o gentil-homem francês descreveu o velho braco de Navarra - ("Le Braqu Français", págs. 8 e 9, pelo dr. Castets e B. Sénac-Lagrange)

J. Castaing, "Les chiens d' arrêt", 1960, a p. 72, retoma a citação que Castets et Sénac-Lagrange atribuiem a Sélincourt e que, de facto, não consta no "Le Parfait chasseur..."

Esta citação que Castet et SénacLagrange erradamente atribuem ao texto do livro de Sélincourt pode ter origem numa gaffe e ter saído de Dunoyer Noirmont (de dois textos) cito aqui "Histoire de la chasse en France...", vol 2 [está no archive.org]

p.366
«On faisait cas, du temps de Sélincourt, des braques d' Espagne, qui "arrêtaint tout et chassaient de haute nez". Ces braques, tout à fait semblabes aux vieux braque français, étaient de haute taille (1) et de formes robustes, avec la tête grosse, les oreilles longues, le museau carré, le nez grosse, les lèvres pendants, le cou épais, les pates longues et fortes. Leur pelage était, ordinairement blanc avec taches brunes».

américo disse...

Mesmo Arkwright cita Espinar com incorreção, como se pode ver

Espinar, "Arte de Ballesteria y Monteria", 1644.
[O livro de Espinar existe no google.books]
p. 57 e verso
«Ay otros, que llaman sabuesoa, y de estos dos castas, unos de menos agilidade, que otros, porque son mucho mas pesadodos: a estos llamamos Nauarros, ó Franceses, porque la casta es de Francia, como la de los Frisones: tiene la cabeça grande, el hozico romo, las orejas muy largas, y anchas, la boca rasgada, los dientes muy recios, y agudos, las piernas cortas, el cuerpo ancho, ytodos eles muy pesados; son de su naturaleza mal sofridos, y vozingleros, aunque de mucho viento y rastro no los usamos en España, porque no son a proposito para nuestro modo de caza: en Francia se mata la caza a fuerza, y son para ellos estos perros muy a proposito: aqui, que se mata con todo secreto, es necessàrio sean los sabuejos muy sufridos, y aunque vean la res jun-

pág. 57 verso

to a si,no ladren, ni se mueuan sin licencia de su dueño: los sabuejos de España son mas ligeros, que los que arriba diximos, y para que anden mas secretos en el monte, los cotamos las orejas, y cola, porque en los tiempos luuiosos no hagan ruido con elas quando le sacudan el agua, que los perros que las tienen se oye el ruido que hazen de muy lexos: son estos perros muy porfiados en el seguimiento de la caza, y para mucho mas trabajo, tienen lindo viento, y son muy grandes mordedores; y como la tierra de España es mucho mas agria que la Francia, si no fueran tan ligeros, no pudiéramos cazar con ellos.»

Arkwright, "The pointer..."
[O livro de Arkwright existe noarchive.org

pág. 19
«... Even the word "navarro", applied in modern times only to a partridge--dog of Navarre, was, first of all the title of a bred of hound. Espinar says in his book (p. 58 - 'There are others [varieties of the dog] that are called hounds, and of them there are two kinds; some of less activity than others, because they are muche heavier. These are called Navarrese or French because the breed is from France, as it is of the Frisons; they have the head large, the muzzle blunt, the hears very long and broad, and are very heavy everiwhere, thy are by nature headstrong, and easily tired, althoug of excellent nose and scenting powers'. He goes on to contrast them with the Spanish hounds, which were much lighter and more active, were very persistent and hunting at their ork, and had fair noises. Thus there were two types of hound in Spain, from which apparently sprang twi types of pointing-dog. The one the heavy, 'barrel-shaped' Navarrese partridge-dog painted by Velazquez (Plate IV), and by Espinosa; the other, as described by Espinar, soswift that they seem to fly over the ground' [esta citação está na p´g. 241 do livro de Espinar], and, as in "Diálogos de la Montaría", 'very fst so that they cover much ground'. It was evidently the "navarro" that first found his way to England; and, according to the old accounts, his powers, both for good and evil, were not impaired by the journey...»

Em Arkwright, "The pointer..." na descrição do Navarro falta: '...los dientes muy recios, las piernas cortas, el cuero ancho,...' do texto de Espinar.

américo disse...

E preciso notar que em Espinar o Navarro tem as pernas curtas depois, nos autores Ingleses e Franceses, passa a ter as pernas longas "hight in is legs" desde à volta de 1800.

américo disse...

Perdão.
Estatura do Spanish pointer:
- Sydenham Edwards, 1800, 22 polegadas de altura
- W. Taplin, 1800, refere pernas curtas
- Robert Lascelles, 1810, 22 polegadas de altura

Enfim, tem que se ir ao google.books e ao archive.org com, pelo menos a bibliografia de Arkwright... - umas horas... agora não.

américo disse...

Não encontrei a referência da nota "(4) Richardson. - quelques-uns de ces Bracques avaint jusqu'à 80 centimètres de hauter" de que Dunoyer Noirmont [ver no 1º dos emails anteriores] diz ter encontrado em Richadson

Do pricípio do texto de Richardson abaixo transcrito podia Dunoyer Ñoirmont ter retirado muito facilmente o texto que dele trancrevemos no 1º email.

H. D. Richardson "Dogs: their origin and varieties...". 1847, 1857. Estas duas edições estão no google.books.

p. 66
«THE SPANISH POINTER
This is a large, big-boned hound, standing hight on is legs, with very heavy ears, and a deep joowl. The Spanish Pointer is usually white, with occasionally some brow or red patches. He is remarkable for hia stanchness, and for the facility with which he can be taugh his duty. It appears to admit of no doubt that the pointer, and other setting-dogs, were originally hounds accustomed to trace their game by scent, and then, "rushing in", secure it; but, previous to his "ruch", it was natural to them to pause for a second or so, to collect their energies for the spring. This momentary pause has been, by training, converted into a decided "stop"; and the dog has been taugh to suspend his intended rush, as it is the privilege of his master, and not hinself, to finish the work the dog has only begun. Such is the hereditary instinct of the highly bred Spanish Pointer, That a whelp, not more than five months old, has been known, when, without any previous training, brought for the first time into the field, to "point" steadly at lying game. I heard one instance, indded, related of a whelp of this age, and under such circunstances as I describ, actually "backing its dam in her point". This sounds stange; but the party to whom I am indebted for
p. 67
the anecdote, is not merely a thorough sportsman, but a torough gentleman, whose word is beyond suspicion.
The Spanish Pointer is apparently a dog of very ancient extraction; but not, as his name would imply, of Spanish origin - at least not remotely so; for the primitiv breed is traceable to the East.Indeed some ancient Egyptan figures, published by Cailland, distinctly represent a dog, beyond question of this variety, in the act of pointing. The old Spanish Pointer is, when perfectly thoroughbred, remarkable as possessing a "cleft nose", similar to the Russian variety, presently to be discribed.
This dog was found too heavy for the asdour of British sportsman, and, with the old Talbot, or Manchester hound, sunk gradually into disuse; and has since become supplanted by a ligher, more active, and energic dog, better suited to tastes of our eager countrymen, viz., the Englih Pointer.»

américo disse...

Podem ver-se extensas citações de Sydenham Edwards, "Cynographia Britannica", 1800, e Taplin, "Sportsman's Cabinet...", 1803 sobre o Spanish Pointer em:
Vero Shaw, pp. 389, 390 e 391, in: "The illustrated book of the dog", 1881
[Este livro está no archive.org]
Shields, G. O. ", pp. 106, 107 e 108 in: The American book of the dog", 1891.
[Este livro está no archive.org.]

Robert Lascelles, "Angling, Shooting, and Coursing..."
[este livro está no archive.org]

américo disse...

Youatt, "The dog", 1845

p. 142
«THE SPANISH POINTER
Originally a bative of Spain, was once considered to be a valuable dog. He stoog higher on is legs, but was too large and heavy in his limbs, and had widely spread, ugly feet, exposing him to frequent lameness. His muzzle and head were large, corresponding with the acuteness of his smell. His ears were large and pendent, and his body ill-formed. He was naturally an ill-tempered dog, growling at the hand that would caress him, even although it were his master's. He stood steadly to his birds; but it was difficult to break him of chasing hare. He was deficient in speed. His redeeming quality was his excellent scent, unequalled in any other kind of dg.»

américo disse...

Claro, há incorrecções nas transcrições, por exemplo:
Destas, e de todas as outras... as minhas desculpas - corrijam por favor nos livros indicados que estão no google.books e no archive.org

Youatt, "The dog, 1845
p. 142
«THE SPANIH pOINTER
Originally a native of Spain, was once considered to be a valuable dog. He stood higher on his leggs but was too large and heavy in his timbs, and, ...»

américo disse...

A citação atribuida por Castets e Senac-Lagrande a Sélincourt, "Le paarfait chasseur..."

está na Pág. 366 de:

Dunoyer Noirmont, "Histoire de la chasse en France depuis les temps les plus reculés jusqu'á la revolution" (Vol. 2)
Este livro está no archive.org

O título do livro de Noirmont não saíu no final do email ao lado da citação da pág. 366

américo disse...

Por conseguinte, a citação que Castets e Sénac-Lagrange erradamente atribuem a Séloncourt, "Le parfait chasseur..." pode afinal ter sido retirada por estes autores de Dunoyer Noirmont, "Histoire de la chasse en France...", vol 2, pág 366 e este (Noirmont)poderá ter encontrado em Richardson, "Dogs: their origin and Varieties...", pág. 66, um texto de conteúdo sobreponível.

O texto da citação de Castets e Sénac-Lagrange afinal, pode ter a sua origem num autor inglês, Richardson - Remontando este à conhecida citação de Espinar sobre o Navarro emboramodificada (o cão tem agora em Richardson patas longas enquanto em Espinar as tinha curtas).

américo disse...

O Spanish Pointer é apresentado comc " His crest and shouder hight and thick" em:

John Scott, Richard Lawrence, "The Sportsman Repository", 1820 (as edições posteriores mantêm a paginação)[este livro está no google.books e no archive.org]

pág. 116
2 We believe the figure offered to the reader's view, to be a true 'fac simile' of the old, or 'Spanish Pointer', and even his spirit as it emanates from his countenance, seems to have been caught and marked with truth and facility by the artist. His heavy head, ear, brow, and chops, seem emblematical of his general coarseness and heaviness. His crest and shoulder are high and thick, the latter being surmonted by a considerable protuberance, which occasions a sinking in the spine adjoining, followed by an elevation in the loins, similar to that in the Greyhound. The lower limbs have great bone, and the feet are large."

A figura referida no início é a gravura de Scoot segu8ndo original de Reinagle, "Spanish Pointer" também referida como "Spanish Pointer with a partridge" que foi primeiro publicada por Taplin, "Sportsman's Cabinet...", 1804, 2ª vol contra a pág. 125

américo disse...

digo: gravura de Scott segundo original de Reinagle, "Spanish Pointer"

américo disse...

John Scott, Richard Lawrence, "The Sportsman's Repository" 1820
H´edições destelivro no google.books e no archive.org

Pág. 115
THE SPANISH POINTER
THE SPANISH POINTER, or as he might, with much propriety, be styled, pointing hound, seems to have been the origin of our "English breed of Pointers", but in the usual obscurity of our sporting histories, no traces remain of the date of such importation from Spain, or of how long pointing dogs, as distinguished from "Setters", have been used by English Gunners. Two centuries have been nominated as this period, the accuracy of which we much doubt, having been informed or having read somewhere, that, the "Pointer" canot be traced in England, beyond the Revolution in 1688. There may be much more of fancy than of fact, in what we are about to advance, but we have often meditated on the probability that, our sporting forefathers instead of being primarily supplied with Pointers from "Spain", in reality mannufactured them at home, out of the Southern Hound, as they had previously worked Setters out of Spaniels. As the Setter was originaly a pure Spaniel Variety, The Pointer stands in precisely the same degree of affinity to the Hound. In fact, the one was originally a Spaniel, the other a Hound, but have subsequently undergone a variety of crossings and intercrossings. The objection of natural pointing may be urged, in opposition to our hypothesis, or whin, or hoax, or whatever designation it may merit; but all are not, perhaps very few are, endowed with that high qualification, any otherwise than in that sligh and obscure degree, in which they share with the "hound". Any Sportsman so inclined, may train a young Fox Hound, or other hound, to Pointing, with at least equal facility as a "Pig", one of which last sporting breed, was Know many years since, in Hampshire, to be highly accomplished in that line. We know many Fox Hounds which might have been made, had any such necessity existed, high ranging and excellent Pointers; many Hounds also which having excellent scenting powers, miht have proved rare plodding and never failing auxiliaries to the Gun.

américo disse...

Scott, Lawrence, "The Sportsman's Repository"

pág 115 (continuação)
We conceive, the idea of training the Hound to point, full as likely to originate in "England" as in "Spain"; perhaps it might occur in both Countries; and perhaps Spanih Pointers may have formely been importd into this country, although no man, nor any book, can fornish us with the "hoc", the "when", or the "where".
The qualifications of the Spanish Pointer, are in strict analogy with those of the Southern Hound. The tenderest nose and most exquisit scenting, joined with true game and steadiness in porsui8t, and proporcionate want of speed. Like the stout Race Horce, these animals are somewhat too slow for profit, with the advantage, granting it one, that they can go scarcely fast enough to tire themselves. They have been represented, but we know not on what authority, as apt to

pág 116
jude and knock up. We believe the figure offered to the reader's view

américo disse...

Taplin, "Sportsman's Cabinet...", vol 2, pág 125 1803
Citação in: Vero shaw "The illustrated book of the dog":

pág 390
«Every trait upon record respecting their appearance in England is that they were 'in very early ages introduced from Spain, and that they were natives of that country from which their name was derived. The Spanish Pointer shape, make , strenght, seeming stupidity, and bolid tardiness, is a perfect specimen of the most consistent uniformity; well adapted in all these qualifications to the haughty, somniferous, majestic parade and edignity of the lofty Spaniard, but very inadequate to the life, spirit, agility, and impatient energy of the English sportsman. This race of dog in his natural and unimproved state is a mass of inactivity, as is evidently perceptible by his shape and make, in every point of which is displayed the very reverse of speed and action, objects so truly necessary in almost every sport of the field. The Pointer of this description is short in the head, broad in the forehead, wide in the nose, expansive in the nostrils, simply solicitous in aspect, heavy in the shoulders, short in the legs, almost circular in the form of the carcase, square upon the back, strong across the loins, and remarkably so in the hind-quarters. Although this breed, like the English pointer
(by the many collateral

pág. 391
aids so much improved), are produced of various colors, yet the bold brown liver-and-white are the most predominant. These dogs, slow as they are, and accustomed to tire with quick work before the intended sport of the day is half over, are yet truly applicable to the purposes of those who e advanced in years, or, labouring under infermities, feel themselves unable to gget across a country in the way they could in fommer years......
The Pointer we are now treating of, though excedingly "slow", must be generally admitted to be "sure"; indefatigable and minute in his recherche, he is rarely seen to miss his game is to be found... When a covey of birds is separated by repeatead shots, and are afterawards found singly, the Pointer under description has opportunity to display his best ability, in mos industriously recovering these scattered birds, the major part of which (if accompanied by a good shoot) are generally picked up to certainty. To the recovery of winged birds the patient perseverance of this dog is peculiarly adapted; and for the por of snipe-shooting alone they are entitled to the preferende of every other.»

américo disse...

Sydenham Edwards, "Cynographia Britannica, 1800-1805 (a obra saíu em fascículos)
in: Vero Shaw, "The Illustrated book of the dog"

pág. 388
«The Sanish Pointer is a heavy, loose-made dog, about twenty-two inches high, bearing no small resemblance to the Southern Hound. Head large, indente between the eyes; lips large and pendolous; ears thin, loose, and hanging down, of moderate lenght; coat short and smooth; colour, dark-brown or liver-colour, liver-colour-and-white, red-and-white, black, black-and-white, sometimes tanned about face and eyes, often thickly sepeckled with small spots on a white ground; the tail thin, smooth, and wiry; frequently dewclaws upon the hind-legs; the hind-feet often turning a little outwards.
The Spanish Pointer was introduced ito this country by a Portugal merchant at a very modern period, and was first used by an old reduced baron of the name Bichell, who lived in Norfolk, and could shoot flying; indeed, he seems to have lived by isgun, as the game he killed was sold in the London market. This valuable acquisition from the Continent was wholly unknown to our ancestors, toghether with the art of shooting flying, but so fond are we become of this most elegant of field sports that we now excel all others in the use of the gun and in the breeding and training of the dog.

américo disse...

Sydenham Edwards," Cynographia Britannica",
in: Vero Shaw, "The illustrated book of the dog"

p 390 [continuação]
The Spanish Pointer possesses in a high degree the sense of scenting, so that he very rarely or never goes by his game when in pursuit of it; requires very little training to make him staunch, most of them standing the first time they meet wit game, and it is no uncommun ocurrence for puppies o0f three months old to stand at poultry, rabbitts, and even ccats. But as they grow old they are apt to get idle, and often go over their ground on a trot instead of gallopping, and from their loose make aand slowness of foot when hunted a few seasons soon tire, have recourse to cunning, and in company let the younger and fleeter dogs beat wide the fields, whilst they do little more than back them, or else make false points. They then became useless but for hunting singly with a sportsman who is not able or not inclined to follow the faster dogs ....
There are other varieties of the ~pointer, as the Russian, in size and form like the Spanish; coat no unlike a drover's dog, rough and shaggy, rough about the eyes, and bearded; colour like the Spanish, but often grizzle-and-white; they differ in some being more rough than others. This is probally a cross betwin the Spanish Pointer and the Barbet or rough wter-dog. He has an excellent nose, sagacious, tractable, and easely made staunch; endures fatigue tolerably well; takes water readily, and is not incommoded by the most cold and wet weather.»

américo disse...

Leopoldo Machado Carmona, afinal e no fim de contas, cita duas vezes Espinar:
- A primeira vez com o texto de Espinar modificado (talvez via Dunoyer Noirmont, "Histoire de la chasse...", vol 2, p. 366) é a citação que atribui erradamente a Sélincourt, "Le parfait chasseur..."
- A segunda vez é a citação que atribui correctamente a Espinar:

"que parece buelan por encima de la terra"
in: Espinar, Arte de Ballestería y Montería, Capitvlu XXXIX, De la caza del Perro de muestra, p. 241.
[o livro de Espinar está no google.books]

«Or, ce braque espagnol etait selon Sélincourt: "haut de taille, de formes robustes, avêc la tête grosse, les oreilles longues, les pattes longues et fortes; leur pelage était ras, ordinairement blanc avec de granes taches brunes". Tandis que l'autre: "les auteurs contemporaines de Sélincourt font un portrait de leur braque, tout à fait différent du profil canin dessiné pour le gentilhomme français. Le braque espagnol était, d' après eux, un animal de moyenne taille, léger et nerveux, chassant la tête haute et três vite. «Certains chiens sont si légers, dit Espinar (1644) qu'ils semblent voler au-dessus du sol», (du "Braque français", p. 8, par le Dr. Castet et Sénac-Lagrange).
Il est évident que Sélincourt décrivait un type, tandis qu'Espinar en décrivait un autre: le premier, celui du braque navarrais, le second, celui du braque portugais, tous les deux qualifiés et très justement "dans ce temps là", de braques espagnols.». In: "Le chien d' arrêt du Portugal, souche du Pointer actuel", l' Éleveur, 6/10/1935

américo disse...

"A treatise on Field diversions" by a Gentlemnt of Sufolk, a staunch Sportsman, isto é, Barnabas Symonds ou Simonds, 1776, 1823, 1824, 1828

[Este livro está no google.books]

pág. 10
THE POINTER
"This kind of dog was introduced here in the beginning of the present century, and is acknowledged to be a native of Spain or Portugal; as many "were" yet "are" brought to us from both kingdoms. The first I remenber to have seen, was about forty years back. Black and white-heavy-slow-without any regularity in beating-under no command- but a NATURAL POINTER. The most general imported was in the liver and whit, especially mottled. They all fall under a parity of description, as to shape

pág 11
and performance; nor can nature be much improved or assisted by art, as they have ferocity of temper which will not submit to correction or discipline, unless taken in hand very young. The activity af our "modern" race of Pointers, we are indebted for, I presume, to the cross between the foreigner and our Setter, The mixture in this case was successfull; as thereby we are furnished with a strain that will act in a greater variety of capacities than any other."

américo disse...

Robert Lascelles, A series of letters on angling, shooting, & coursing"
[Este livro está no google.books e no archive.org]

pág. 166
«... A friend of mine, a great sportsman, and who posses a real Don, has been kind enough to give me a description of is properties, and which, for your satisfation, I will now transmit to you; his remarks, you will perceive, are dictated partly by the object of my question; viz. what resemblance he bore to Woollett's celebrated engraving of the same species of animal?

"In colour he is spotted, as you have seen Danes, with this difference, that where their spots are 'black', his are similar to those of a 'tortoise shell' cat: on his body they are of various sizes but on his head very small and numerous, the ground of all being

pág. 167
white. His 'nose' not black, but of a flesh-color; his skin delicate and very soft to the touch, more resembling very fine wool than hair, and probably the result of a warmer climate: his 'stern' not quite so fine, as if he possessed some distant cross of a setter. His 'head' by no means resembles the general idea of a Spanish pointer, heavy like a blood-hound, but is 'particularly ligh and fine, shewing all breeding possible, especially in ears. In height he stands 22 inches; from the nose to the end of his stern, wich I think has been shortened, 3 feet 3 inches, and from that point also to the setting on of the latter, 2 feet 2 inches; thus you will perceive that he is rather a small dog than otherwise, without the least 'lumber':he has excellent bone, with round, even, and sound feet; I do not recollect him ever footsore. His shoulders are somewhat faulty, being too upwright, and he appears in consequence to gallop rather wide before; but I have observed him to hunt longer, and bear more fatigue than any other dog that I have been in the practice of hunting with him, never having been deprived of his services, after once broke to the gun, for a single day; frequently riding at no easy pace, six

pág. 168
miles to my ground, and this in september, for several days together; indeed I never fancied sport without MADRID. His pace, which is fast, he seldom varies, and he is always at work, carrying his head in one position, lofty; his action, when pointing, is perfectly upwright; his stern straight and extended, and his head a little higher than when ranging; he never raises a foot, nor in any degree approaches the groug with his body;

américo disse...

Robert Lascelles, "A series of letters on angling, shooting, & coursing"

[CONTINUAÇÃO]

Pág. 168
this attitude, which is althogether handsome, I do not recollect him ever to have deviated from. His nose certainly superior to that of any other dog in my possesion, and still more so in warm wearher; but where I find him most useful is, in his being able to hunt without water, which he will do through the hottest day: he was never on the moors; but from his prefering rather a wide range, and being an excellent footer, I think he would be serviceable. I one day, last Summer, shot four coupkes and an half of young wild ducks to him, all of which he pointed. I believe he stood at the first bird he found, but from the violence of his temper he was difficult to reduce to order, always flying at the face of the person correcting him, but, when once shot over, gave no

pág. 169
further trouble; he is still savage toward strangers and other dogs; and a most voracious feeder, satisfied; I have occasionally fed him one potatos only.

It is difficult what answer to give respecting his offspring, as much depending upon the one side as the other; two of my own, however, which I shot over the last season, have fully answered my expectations, as, I understend, has been the case with another which I gave away; these are all which have been tried. They exceed their sire in size, but nearly resemble him in color; I had one very curious, (dead,) black. blue, and white. I have one now, brown, white, and black, and another blue and black. My brother, who brought hm from Gibraltar, said his breed was considered scarce, and that it was called the Regent's breed, bespeaking more perahaps the Portuguese than Spaniard."

Such ia a description of the Spanish pointer of the present day, and I have no doubt but the breed may be considered improved by skilfully crossing with our own.»

Nota: o "Portuguese Regent" é D. João VI.

américo disse...

A palavra "Braques" apenas se encontra nos dois sítios indicados em todo o livro de:

Sélincourt, "Le parfait chasseur..."

Na última página desta Tábua que está quase logo no princípio do livro imediatamente seguir a uma outra "Table des Chasses..." onde consta Braco isoladamente numa colua que enumera os tipos de cães que se usam em determinado tipo de caça:

«Table Generale des Noms de tous les Chiens propes à la Chaffe
...
...
"Les chiens de l' Arquebufe"

Sont apliqués à plufieers Chaffes.
Les Chiens couchants, font Braques qui arrêtent tout, chaffent de hante nez, les meilleurs font d' Efpagne.
Les Efpagnols font pour les Oyseaux, chaffent le nez bas, & fuivent par le piend.

Les Griffons
Chassent le nez haut, arrêtent tout & chaffent auffi le nez bas, & suivent par le pied mieux que tous les autres par les chaleurs, les meilleurs viennent d' Italie & de Piemont.
Les Barbets frifez & à demi-poil fuivent tous par le pied; chaffent le nez bas quant le gibier fuit, & quant il demeure chaffent le nez haut & l' arrêtent, ils chaffent fur terre & dans l' eau, leur principal nature eft de rapporter, ils font rudes au gibier, les frifés plus que les autres, mais tous font les plus fideles Chiens du monde, & qui ne veulent connoître qu' un Maître, & ne le jamais perdre de veue.»

Em pricípio os "griffons não são incluídos por Sélincourt no grupo de "les Chiens de l' Arquebuse", só os "Braques" e os "Efpagnols" fazem parte deste grupo.

Como disse a citação que Castets e Sénac-Lagrange atribuem a Sélincourt e que Leopoldo Carmona retoma não está no livro
As palavras "braques d' Espagne" não se encontram no livro de Sélincourt que só tem uma edição.

américo disse...

Tal como Sélincourt os autores que nos seus livros escreveram capítulos que são manuais de ensino do chien d'arrêt consideram apenas o Braque,o Épagneul e o Griffon como chiens d'arrêt.

Briffardière, "Nouveau traté de Véneririe, 1742, retomado pela "enciclopedie de Diderot, 1751;
Magné de Marolles, La chasse au fusil, 1781
Desgraviers, L'Art du Valet de limiers, 1784 - publicado depois com outros títulos.
[estes livros estão no google.books ou no archive.org]

Nenhum destes autores se refere ao "braque d' Espagne" Que Castets e Sénac-Lagrange referem erradamente a Sélincourt

Nem mesmo Magné de Marolles que conhece extremamente bem Espinar, cita-o 39 vezes se refere ao "nauarro" de Martinez Espinar.

E, ainda, Buffon, du Cabinet du roi

Buffon, "Histoire nutarelle generalle et particulière", vol. 2 do Volume 23, p. 348, numa edição de 1808.
p. 348
"Dans les plaines, on chasse avec le chien couchant, ou chien d'arrêt, ou chien ferme. Trois espèces sont propres à cette chasse, le braque, l'épagneul et le griffon.
Le braque est le plus brillant et le pllus léger dans sa quête, mais la plupart de ces chiens craignent l'eau et le ronces; au lieu que l'épagneul..."

Não encontrei esta citação no site
www.buffon.cnrs.fr/

Américo Caseiro disse...

Briffardière, "Nouveau traité de Vénerie...", 1750, 1º ed. 1724
[Este livro está no google.books]

De la manière d' élever & dresser les Chiens d'arrêt..., pág 351

pág 353
"Il y à tris fortes de Chiens propres à dreffer pour arrêter les perdox, les cailles & les lièvres. La premiere efpece eft le 'Braque', qui eft un chien ras de poil, bien coupé, & fort léger. Il convient dans les plaines. parce qu' il résifte à chaffer pendant la chaleur, & qu'il a dans ce tems le nez meilleur que tout autre chien. La fegonde efpece eft l' 'Épagneul', qui eft un chien plus chargé de poil que le Braque. Il convient mieux dans les pays couverts. La troifiéme efpéce eft le 'Griffon', qui vient de Pidémont & d'Italie. Il a le poil hérffé & droit; il eft très-docile, arrête plume & poil, va à l' eau, & chasse de guelle toutes fortes de bêtes, comm les chiens courants. La race eft rare en France, & il est très-difficile d' en trouver."

Américo Caseiro disse...

Magné de Marolles, "La chasse au fusil...", 1788, 1ª ed. 1781.
[Este livro existe no google.books]

Chapitre II Instructions pour dresser un chien couchant, pág. 177

pág. 180
"Il y a trois espèces de chiens propres à recevoir cette instruction, le braque, l'épagneul et le griffon; ce dernier est un chien à long poil un peu frisée, et qui tient du barbet et de l' épagneul. Le braque est plus léger et plus

páf. 181
brillant dans sa quête; mais, en général, il n'est bon que pour la plaine; la pluspart de ces chiens craignent l' eau et les ronces, au lieu que l'épagneul et le griffon s' accoutument aisément à chasser et rapporter dans l' eau, même par les plus grands froids, et quêtent au bois et dans les lieux les plus fourrés, comme en plaine. Il y a donc toujours beaucoup plus de ressource dans ces deuxespèces de chien, que dans un braque."

Américo Caseiro disse...

Desgraviers, "Le parfait chasseur...", 1810, 1ª ed. é de 1784 com o título "L' Art du Valet de limiers...". Há várias edições com títulos diferentes e paginação diferente}
[Há varias edições no google. books e no archive.org]

Chapitre. De la manière de dresser un Chien pour la plaine, ou Chien d'arrêt, pág. 83

pág. 86
"Détail des différentes espèces de Chiens propres à la chasse de la plaine, ou à faire un Chien d' arrêt

Les Braques sont de toute taille, bien coupés, vigoureux, légers, hardis, infatigables, ras de poil, et le nez excellents: ils chassent le llièvre sans donner la voix, et arrêtent fort bien la perdix, la caille, etc.
Les Chiens-Couchants, chassent de haut nez, et arrêtent tout: ils sont grands, forts et légers; les meilleurs viennent d' Espagne.
Les Epagneuls sont fournis de poil que les Braques, et conviennent mieux dans les pays couverts: ils donnent de la voix: ils chassent le lièvre et le lapin. J' en ai vu chasser fort bien le chevreul et le sanglier, et arrêter ensuite la plume en plaine: ils on un nez excellent, beaucoup d' ardeur et de courage.
Le Griffon est une espèce qui vient du Piémont et d' Italie; il a le poil hérissé, droit, assez haut et chassant tout.
Les Barbets sont fort vigoureux, intelligens, hardis,ont le poil frisé, vont â l' eau comme un canard, et on en fait ce qu' un veut à la plaine et au bois, oú ils chassent également bien quand on prend la peine de les instruire.
Il y a différents autres espèces de chiens pour la plaine, qui dérivent de calles-ci, et qui sont d' une plus petit taille, et d'autres de ces différents races croisés, qui font des métis excellens pou chasser en plaine, et dans le d´tail desquelles je n' entrerait pas."

Américo Caseiro disse...

Quando para tornar evidente se isola o par de opostos "pernas curtas [Navarro] versus pernas compridas [Spanish pointer} surgem como que iluminada por uma luz gerada e emitida por este par de opostos toda a série de características opostas entre o Navarro de Espinar [impróprio para caçar em Espanha por causa do processo de caça que os espanhóis usavam e próprio para caçar em França onde a chasseà force era o processo de eleição] e o Spanish pointer.
Eventualmaente (se uma necesidade de redefinição fôr aceite) será o começo da necessidade de desvendar de novo, de redefinir o problema clássico da origem do ponter, talvez de deslocá-lo. Será?, Não será?

Leopoldo Carmona cita Esspinar, claro, mas nunca refere o livro de Espinar localizado na Biblioteca Nacional de Lisboa.

É normal que lhe tenha passado que embora tão diferentes pudesse considerar que o Navarro de Espinar e o Spanish ponter fosse o mesmo cão pois não tinha identificdo a dicotomia - o problema de Carmona era a dicotomia braque d'Espagne de haute taille versos cão de Espinar que voava sobre o solo.

Américo Caseiro disse...

Com Manuel Correia a questão leva a um problema muito sério: leva ao encontro de um paradoxo de autor.

A bibliografia que Manuel Correia põe no seu livrinho( como ele, Manuel Correia lhe chama e eu informo que é uma vergonha que não esteja na BN) é muito pesada - Manuel Correia chega a deslocr para lá a bibliografia doutro seu trabalho que resolveu deixar inédito (!!!?) o que aumenta o peso das obras que menciona - a bibliografia de Manuel Correia é pequena mas de muito peso.

Da bibliografia consta:
ESPINAR, Alonso Martinez de, "Arte de Ballesteria y onteria", Madrid, 1644 (Biblioteca Nacional de Lisboa, SA 15650 P).

Procurou arduamente o livro- até deu com ele na Bn onde talvez não devesse esperá-lo...

Como é que um autor de caracter tão rigoroso e exigente, rigoroso até ao hábito, deixou passar a diferença entre o Navarro de pernas curtas de Espinar, o Navarro truncado de Arkwright, o Spanish pointer de pernas progressivamente mais compridas dos autores ingleses, e o braque d' Espagne definitivamente de "haute taille", etc.?

É certamento um paradoxo de comportamento de autor.

O autor está vivo e bem vivo, não corro risco de interpretar.

Américo Caseiro disse...

Mas como é que se pode exigir que Manuel Correia notasse o Spanish pointer de pernas progressivamente mais compridas dos autores ingleses se ele não tinha disponível a bibliografia.
Depois, sem tomar conhecimento do escândalo de a citação aqui em causa não se encontrar mesmo em Sélincourt, como é que Manuel Correia podia desenvolver o ambiente mental e criar a suspeição de modo a valorizar e tomar nota do facto de Arkwright ter truncado a citação que faz sobre o Navarro de Espinar?de Espinar?
O que é que o podia levar a desconfiar da lisura de Castest e Sénac-Lagrange? Não encontro nada.

Parece-me então que não se pode dizer que o facto de Manuel Correia ter acolhido a citação que Leopoldo Carmona adoptou dos autores de "Le braque français" seja considerado uma manifestação de um paradoxo de comportamento de autor.